While I both understand and agree with this site's guiding persuasion, I also appreciate the level of writing that this site provides enough to ask: what are the best non-HG fics?
While I both understand and agree with this site's guiding persuasion, I also appreciate the level of writing that this site provides enough to ask: what are the best non-HG fics?
My quick response is 'none', but if pushed I would say Tonks. I don't think they're suited, but she makes more sense to me than any other.
My quick response is 'none', but if pushed I would say Tonks. I don't think they're suited, but she makes more sense to me than any other.
My feelings exactly. Tonks is the only female character near enough to Harry's age who makes sense and has any defined character in the books. I have read decent Harry/Daphne stories but these work only because she is a 'blank slate' that the fanfic author can fill in to be what he or she wants. Tonks sense of fun and non-conformity can be made to work well with Harry's personality but the age and experience gap is just too much to stand up to much scrutiny.
I find that the plausibility of non Harry/Ginny pairings directly correlate to: A) the starting point for the story and B) the degree of AU nature in the story.
I think the Harry/Hermione pairing is completely plausible, in particular, as long as it is presented early enough in the timeline and the characters are developed in that direction. I do not believe the pairing is plausible in any story that lists post-GoF as a setting, and I do not believe any non Harry/Ginny pairing is plausible in any story that is set post-HBP, aside from perhaps certain special circumstances (I'm thinking of one fic in particular where Harry did his whole portal-to-an-alternate-reality thing, and when he came out the other side, not everyone's personality lined up with that from canon).
I find that the plausibility of non Harry/Ginny pairings directly correlate to: A) the starting point for the story and B) the degree of AU nature in the story.
I think the Harry/Hermione pairing is completely plausible, in particular, as long as it is presented early enough in the timeline and the characters are developed in that direction. I do not believe the pairing is plausible in any story that lists post-GoF as a setting, and I do not believe any non Harry/Ginny pairing is plausible in any story that is set post-HBP, aside from perhaps certain special circumstances (I'm thinking of one fic in particular where Harry did his whole portal-to-an-alternate-reality thing, and when he came out the other side, not everyone's personality lined up with that from canon).
There is one post-GoF Harry/Hermione story that I found plausible in terms of the pair because of the situation. I didn't find the back story of it plausible though. Harry was being badly abused by the Dursleys for like forever and nobody seemed to have noticed until Sirius paid the Dursleys a visit to see why Harry wasn't replying to any letters. In addition to that, Pettigrew was capture shortly after the events of GoF and Sirius was proven innocent yet the Ministry still refused to believe Voldemort was back even though they had Pettigrew in custody (that's nothing compared to what happened later on in the story after Umbridge's blood quill). Anyways, I found the Harry/Hermione pairing plausible because Harry ended up staying with Remus and Sirius in some house Sirius bought that was like 15 minutes drive or so from where Hermione lived. Hermione decided to spend the summer with her parents that summer instead of being at 12 Grimauld Place so Harry and Hermione saw each other often during the summer.
A fish without a bicycle cannot contemplate his navel.
My feelings exactly. Tonks is the only female character near enough to Harry's age who makes sense and has any defined character in the books. I have read decent Harry/Daphne stories but these work only because she is a 'blank slate' that the fanfic author can fill in to be what he or she wants. Tonks sense of fun and non-conformity can be made to work well with Harry's personality but the age and experience gap is just too much to stand up to much scrutiny.
I think your comments on "any defined character in the books" and "blank slates" are the key, at least from my PoV. JKR just doesn't tell us enough about the other girls. She spent so much time on the trio (H/R/Hr), we don't know about the others. Even info on Tonks is pretty minimal ("Summer of Change" which is H/Tonks is in my top 5 favorites, although it is fairly A/U).
In many ways, despite H/G being my favorite paring, I understand some people's confusion on why Ginny is the correct person for Harry. JKR really didn't give us all that much on Ginny either, making her somewhat of a blank slate too. I managed to obtain an electronic copy of book 5 (to match the book I purchased) and did a search on Ginny. In that book where they are starting to get to know one another as real people/friends, I only found 11 sections with Ginny talking, all between 2 & 12 paragraphs (relatively small parts). If I didn't understand her desire to show Harry as isolated, I'd almost want to accuse JKR of being afraid to write romantic parts. :) My point is that with that little info, what do we really know about Ginny and how she thinks? Book 7 was a major disappointment in the same way, where Ginny is essentially absent until the Epilogue.
Basically, if you don't put Harry with Hermione, you have to make up the girl (or fill her in) -- or so it seems to me.
But to answer the question, I particularly like Harry/(strong Slytherin girl) stories, as long as the author can make the reason they get together believable. I'm somewhat surprised not to see more Harry/Padma stories, as I think that could work well (I see Parvati as too flighty).
I, too, think JKR is afraid to write fluff, as there is only the one-paragraph-long scene in HBP. Most people I know curse her for the "censoring" she's done, myself included. The reason for that might be the fact that the books are originally meant for school-aged kids, who go "EWWWWWWW!" every time they see people kissing or holding hands. That sucks, but I think it's either that, or she's insecure of her talents in writing such scenes... Any other ideas?
I just think it's the fact that they are not romance novels. I don't think it's got anything to do with how well JKR does or does not write them or insecurity or anything it's just the fact that they are *not* romance books!
I don't think they need to be romance novels to show the lead male & female spending time together with snippets of talks where they get to know each other and let the reader learn about the characters. (Why the H/G thing seems like such a surprise to some people.) What about one character giving the other "looks" and having that returned, or some verbal flirting -- something to show developing attraction? That and many other things would fit within a "teen" book and could be outside of romance novels. I've got a huge stack of SciFi/Fantasy novels that don't seem to shy about pointing out the lead characters like each other and show them getting to know one another and depend on each other (and most aren't graphic).
I don't know... I really do wonder if JKR was afraid to write it, couldn't do a good job of it, her editor made her take it out, or more likely she didn't see the need as in not understanding her audience well enough. Or some combo of that. Unless she says something, we'll probably never know.
This can sorta go into the same bucket as the "monster in the chest" thing in book6, where I go "Huh? What was JKR thinking? What target was she trying to hit because it looks like a clean miss to me."
I also think it has to be Harry's age. I remember, though it was awhile ago, that sometimes you just notice a girl. Especially since Harry sees Dean and Ginny it is really the first time he sees Ginny in a close up "romantic" situation. The id is powerful but the ego is oblivious.
Oh my gosh - no one I knew spent time *talking* when we were 16!
So that's why I didn't have a girlfriend in High School! I talked too much! And here I thought it was because girls were always attracted to the jerks, because for some unfathomable reason, they were the popular ones. What I wouldn't do for a time machine now.
The non talking phase doesn't last long :P You are far better off being a talker in the long run it's more profitable. I'm just saying that at 16 you look, you like, you chase, you kiss. There's no indepth conversationing there are too may hormones!
This can sorta go into the same bucket as the "monster in the chest" thing in book6, where I go "Huh? What was JKR thinking? What target was she trying to hit because it looks like a clean miss to me."
My impression was that Harry was experiencing feelings for which he literally had no reference and no words to describe, so had to make it up.
It is implicit that his first eleven years were almost devoid of any affection, much less love, and it is testament to his nature that he was eventually able to understand or express any such thing.
It is also reasonably obvious that when it came to his relationship with Ginny, he was almost pathologically afraid of arousing Ron's ire. He witnessed Ron's attitude towards her earlier boyfriends, why would he think Ron would treat him any differently? He is more worried about losing one of his very few friends than pursuing a relationship, even if he knew what to do with such a thing.
For me, many non-Ginny stories portray Harry as some kind of lothario, confident around girls, just avoiding the "red-headed harridan". This makes me so angry on behalf of both Harry and Ginny that I would be throwing these stories at the wall were I to waste paper printing them out.
My impression was that Harry was experiencing feelings for which he literally had no reference and no words to describe, so had to make it up.
...
It is also reasonably obvious that when it came to his relationship with Ginny, he was almost pathologically afraid of arousing Ron's ire. ...
That may be a good way to put it. I just took the phrase as his way of expressing jealousy as he was starting to realize his feelings. But "the monster in his chest" still strikes me as nonsensical. I've seen multiple stories explain it as a love potion he was slipped that causes him to react to Ginny when he sees her, which leaves me shaking my head.
I agree. Ron really did Harry a disservice. Then again, Ron is just as clueless in regards to feelings, whether his own or of those around him (or so it seems to me). If Harry hadn't been afraid of losing a friend, because of the way he was raised, I believe he would have let Ron only be a normal friend instead of a best friend, especially after 4th year.
We don't hate Ron, as such. It's simply that he is a teenage boy, many of whom are pretty unpleasant for a significant proportion of the time.
Just in case you worry about personal bias, I'm speaking from personal experience of having been one, spending five years at boarding school with another 500 or so, witnessing how they interacted with girls of an equivalent age.
Also, I'm in no way suggesting that teenage girls are much better, just different (can you tell I have a teenage daughter?). You'll notice JKR made no distinction between how either gender treated Harry, whether persecuting or lionising him. The big difference we see is between Hermione and Ron, and she's several months older, not to mention not the younger sibling of a successful bunch with issues and that desire to prove himself.
I don't hate Ron, that would be too strong. Dislike would be better.
I'll be the first to say no one is perfect (including me), but I think Ron really dragged Harry down. Second year was Ron's shining moment. He helped Harry get away from Durskaban (I wish I knew who came up with that :) and he stood by him during the Parseltongue debacle. You can put the helping in going after the Stone at the end of year 1 in with this list too, as it was close to the same timeframe. However, other than that, I don't see many positives about Ron.
Ron was quite jealous over time, easily side-tracked, seemed to think more of himself than anyone else, completely walked away from Harry when he was really needed -- twice, pulled Harry down in his school work, he didn't seem to clue Harry in on the Wizarding world (IIRC), and probably some other stuff, but that's the main ones that immediately come to mind. In many ways, I think Ron and Draco aren't that different, except that Draco takes his view further, but then look at who his parents are. To be fair, Ron did share his family with Harry (which Harry really needed), and as NotACat pointed out, many teenage boys have some or many of these traits. (I probably don't want to know what others thought of me when I was 11-18. :)
I'm willing to admit that perhaps "in the moment", Ron wasn't that bad, and my dislike comes from being able to see everything over 7 years, so I can look back at the early times and think: Wow. Harry would have done a lot better if he had listened to Hermy more than Ron. Harry needed more, but then I don't think JKR wanted that, as Harry would have been too strong and wouldn't have sacrificed himself (which is a real plot stretch, but I'll try to ignore that here {yes, I really disliked book7}). I think Harry needed a better friend than Ron as his best mate, but for that to happen, I suppose Harry would have had to have been in Hufflepuff. :)
That's a heaps different view of Ron than the one I have. *shrugs* Sure he has some traits that aren't great - don't we all? Ultimately I found Ron to be a wonderful friend for Harry. As a friend I am not always as I should be and I have very good friends who drop the ball sometimes. The value in the friendship is that we continue as friends past these indiscretions.
Often I see in the friends my children choose things that I think make them unsuitable but my child gets something from the friendship - they choose them anyway and are fulfilled by the relationship I see as flawed.
As for Ron and Harry I find there to be more times when Ron and Harry work as best friends than when they don't. I don't think Ron had any worse view of school work than Harry does. Friendships can survive jealousy and break ups. Not always, but I buy that this one does.
I like Ron. He's not perfect but Harry chooses him and that says more to me than what I might think his flaws are.
I like Ron. He's not perfect but Harry chooses him and that says more to me than what I might think his flaws are.
Yeah, its about Harry's choices. I wouldn't have Hermione as a friend, but I know that she is important to Harry and I accept that. I do try and avoid her in fanfic, especially when you have early Harry/Ginny but Hermione is still a major player in Harry's life.
I'm willing to admit that perhaps "in the moment", Ron wasn't that bad, and my dislike comes from being able to see everything over 7 years, so I can look back at the early times and think: Wow. Harry would have done a lot better if he had listened to Hermy more than Ron. Harry needed more, but then I don't think JKR wanted that, as Harry would have been too strong and wouldn't have sacrificed himself (which is a real plot stretch, but I'll try to ignore that here {yes, I really disliked book7}). I think Harry needed a better friend than Ron as his best mate, but for that to happen, I suppose Harry would have had to have been in Hufflepuff. :)
Truly, it's a lot simpler than that. One of the reasons to employ a "trio" of friends in a dramatic or adventure narrative (Star Trek TOS, Star Wars, Nancy Drew, Tom Corbett, Danny Dunn, etc.) is that is provides an easy vehicle to illustrate the protagonist's decisionmaking process. Typically you have one of the friends represent one aspect of the protag's mind, while the other represents the other. Often this is Id vs. Superego, with protag playing the Ego, but there are other ways of diagramming it. Friend Id and Friend Superego bicker, and protag makes the decision. Protag can never listen entirely to one or the other, because then there's no real drama, but which one will predominate depends on where you need the narrative to go.
Harry had to make a lot of bad decisions over the years (especially in not telling Dumbledore certain things) in order for the narrative to progress where it did. Ron's choices aren't all bad, but they're mostly motivated by his affections and appetites rather than by his conscience or his intellect. Hermione's almost exactly the opposite, and this is allows us to see the outlines of the choices Harry faces.
This is, incidentally, why it was obvious that Ron & Hermione were destined for each other from nearly the Word Go. R & Hr complement and complete each other in a way that H & Hr never could. Ron needs Hermione's intellect and superego, and she needs his appetites and id. Ginny's relationship to all this is pretty vague, but again, given the kind of story this is, not really unexpected.
Truly, it's a lot simpler than that. One of the reasons to employ a "trio" of friends in a dramatic or adventure narrative (Star Trek TOS, Star Wars, Nancy Drew, Tom Corbett, Danny Dunn, etc.) is that is provides an easy vehicle to illustrate the protagonist's decision making process. Typically you have one of the friends represent one aspect of the protag's mind, while the other represents the other. Often this is Id vs. Superego, with protag playing the Ego, but there are other ways of diagramming it. Friend Id and Friend Superego bicker, and protag makes the decision. Protag can never listen entirely to one or the other, because then there's no real drama, but which one will predominate depends on where you need the narrative to go.
...
That's an interesting way of looking at it that I've never thought about, and it makes sense. I'll assume that a "common literary device" I've just never picked up on before. Then again, I thought that this sort of mental discussion was why the main character always had conversations with the white angel on one shoulder and the
red devil on the other shoulder. :)
Rhetor wrote:
This is, incidentally, why it was obvious that Ron & Hermione were destined for each other from nearly the Word Go. R & Hr complement and complete each other in a way that H & Hr never could. Ron needs Hermione's intellect and superego, and she needs his appetites and id. Ginny's relationship to all this is pretty vague, but again, given the kind of story this is, not really unexpected.
I'm sorry, but I just can't go there. I will agree with you that Hermy needs some traits Ron has (he's more laid back and not so "type A") while she has some traits he needs (like being more organized and motivated). But almost all relationships I know have a sizable amount of common ground to build upon, and I don't see that for R/Hr. Yes, I don't think their adventures together with Harry is enough, because they're not part of the pair's personalities. I don't know, maybe I'm just blind in some way, but I really can't see putting Ron and Hermy together as being logical; they have too many differences. I can find the common ground in personalities for Harry and Ginny, but not for Ron and Hermy.
Immaturity of teens aside, I'll agree with the above posters that Ron possesses few of the traits I would personally look for in a friend. That said, I understand why Harry likes Ron, through both his affection-starved history and, more likely, his greater sense of benevolence and understanding. Few people are as heroic as Potter. Such heroism aside, I identify more with Harry's other potential friends.
Having noted that, I'd like to direct this thread back to the reason I actually created it: non-HG ship stories.
Ginny presents a fantastic character for Rowling: she is both intimately involved with Harry in an early (second) book and is a blank slate upon which to write in the later books. No other character is both as involved and open to interpretation as Ginevra. Rowling's heart was in the right place, even if I feel the fanfiction community has far better explored the H/G relationship than she. As many others have noted, the Harry Potter books were not written as romances.
Those facts aside, I would like to explore fiction that examines not just H/G relationships, but others as well. Arguments about Freudian logic (Id, Ego, etc.) are all well and good but Rowling did characterize nigh-every major character better than Ginny. I'd love to enjoy reading the very best H/? stories, even if I come back to SIYE...
I enjoyed Paradigm of Uncertainty when I read it - the first two in the unfinished trilogy - it's Harry/Hermione - but generally I just don't enjoy Harry paired with anyone else, so I've not found one worth reading. I started reading PoU only becasue it was on the PotterFicWeekly podcast I was editing and I read it and discussed it and had a blast but I've not found another story with a H/other pairing that I ahve enjoyed. My mind normally wanders and I get bored and never finish it.
I enjoyed Paradigm of Uncertainty when I read it - the first two in the unfinished trilogy - it's Harry/Hermione - but generally I just don't enjoy Harry paired with anyone else, so I've not found one worth reading. I started reading PoU only becasue it was on the PotterFicWeekly podcast I was editing and I read it and discussed it and had a blast but I've not found another story with a H/other pairing that I ahve enjoyed. My mind normally wanders and I get bored and never finish it.
The few occasions I have ventured into non-Harry/Ginny fics any enjoyment has come from stuff outside the ships.
I have read all that is posted of Delenda Est on FF.net. Its Harry/Bella but wisely goes back to a younger Bella who could, possibly, be taken on a different track. Its a bit uneven but I do enjoy the Pureblood machinations.
The author, Lord Silvere, says in his profile:
Harry/Ginny has always been my favorite ship, but I kind of have a secret like for Harry/Bellatrix, though it is extremely difficult to find anything that is done well owing to the small nature of the ship.
I, personally, find that Harry/Luna does wonders for my sense of humor. Those fics are often so funny that people start giving me weird looks. But I don't generally read them unless they have some H/G in there, so I sometimes read some H/G/L witch there aren't really that many.
I've only finished reading only two Harry/Luna stories. One was "Luna's Hubby" which wasn't exactly completely serious. The other I believe was called "Bonds of Family" and was very serious.
A fish without a bicycle cannot contemplate his navel.
While I consider myself to be primarily a H/G writer (13.3 out of my 18 stories), I wanted to try my hand at a Harry/("bad" girl) story. So, I wrote "The Grass Is Always Greener", a Harry/Daphne story. I'll happily admit that you have to take reader stats with a grain of salt (or perhaps several spoonfuls :) but based on my story stats on fanfiction.net, this H/Daphne story is far and away the "favorite" story on any stat you want to name for my multi-chapter stories. Second place is not even close, either. I find that very interesting. Here's average hits per chapter for the top 4 stories:
TGIAG has more C2's, reviews, alerts, and Favs (in total) than any other story. "Rogue" has 20K more hits total, but then "Rogue" is 20 chapters long while TGIAG is only 8 chapters. What I get out of that is that the Harry/Daphne pairing is very popular. I find that even stranger because she's only mentioned in the books once (that I'm aware of), and only that she was a Slytherin girl who was taking her OWLs at the same time Harry was. Talk about a "blank slate"! :)
I can't come up with a good explanation for this popularity...
While I quite lucked into writing H/G myself for my niece long before I discovered online fanfic, I have no aversions to reading any well thought out pairings. I am no 'shipper'. I'll read anything save smut (most HP authors haven't had NEARLY enough experience to write this worth a damn) or slash (which I just tend to find lame and boring, see previous.) mostly due to quality.
Just a couple to get you started:
There are some excellent H/Hr stories that do a good job of explaining the how/why. Kokopelli's 'Ever After' comes to mind. But generally, most of the good H/Hr fics are old enough to be what I would consider to be a 'pre-cannon' pairing of H/G so it ought not matter to you. Ask around, there are loads. During the heavy 'shipping' thing there were H/Hr only boards. No idea if any still exist. Ask around.
If you want to read some interesting pairings, find 'fan fic authors dot net' and read some Jeconais'. The author has done a number of interesting stories with all sorts of pairings and story lengths. Strong author. I recommend spending some time reading quite a few of his(?) works. the knight/queen, and This Means War titles are quite fun.
Ishtar's unfinished 'Family Values' is quite fun. Though I normally despise crossovers (due to the poor logic used and the overall average poor quality of writing) this one is fairly amusing. Addams Family meets HP.
There were a pair of fics I recall with one of the twin sisters(parvati?), titled something like 'Dance with me Harry' I don't recall the author. I recall they were decent, but wandered a bit and the second one dragged on forever.
...what are the best gen-HP fics out there? When Sugar Quill went dormant, I lost my main source for general HP fanfic that follows canon without focusing mainly on H/G. I'm currently reading Fernwithy's 7th yr Teddy serial among a handful of other stories that are all waiting to be updated, so I'm looking for something new to get me hooked. Non-canon pairings are ok if it makes sense with the plot, but I generally avoid slash. AU is perfectly fine in my book if well-written, too. Suggestions?
Either that, or Phantom Limb, Sins of the Father's, and/or Meaning of One can hurry up and post a chapter just for me! ;)
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While I both understand and agree with this site's guiding persuasion, I also appreciate the level of writing that this site provides enough to ask: what are the best non-HG fics?
My quick response is 'none', but if pushed I would say Tonks. I don't think they're suited, but she makes more sense to me than any other.
My quick response is 'none', but if pushed I would say Tonks. I don't think they're suited, but she makes more sense to me than any other.
My feelings exactly. Tonks is the only female character near enough to Harry's age who makes sense and has any defined character in the books. I have read decent Harry/Daphne stories but these work only because she is a 'blank slate' that the fanfic author can fill in to be what he or she wants. Tonks sense of fun and non-conformity can be made to work well with Harry's personality but the age and experience gap is just too much to stand up to much scrutiny.
I find that the plausibility of non Harry/Ginny pairings directly correlate to: A) the starting point for the story and B) the degree of AU nature in the story.
I think the Harry/Hermione pairing is completely plausible, in particular, as long as it is presented early enough in the timeline and the characters are developed in that direction. I do not believe the pairing is plausible in any story that lists post-GoF as a setting, and I do not believe any non Harry/Ginny pairing is plausible in any story that is set post-HBP, aside from perhaps certain special circumstances (I'm thinking of one fic in particular where Harry did his whole portal-to-an-alternate-reality thing, and when he came out the other side, not everyone's personality lined up with that from canon).
I find that the plausibility of non Harry/Ginny pairings directly correlate to: A) the starting point for the story and B) the degree of AU nature in the story.
I think the Harry/Hermione pairing is completely plausible, in particular, as long as it is presented early enough in the timeline and the characters are developed in that direction. I do not believe the pairing is plausible in any story that lists post-GoF as a setting, and I do not believe any non Harry/Ginny pairing is plausible in any story that is set post-HBP, aside from perhaps certain special circumstances (I'm thinking of one fic in particular where Harry did his whole portal-to-an-alternate-reality thing, and when he came out the other side, not everyone's personality lined up with that from canon).
There is one post-GoF Harry/Hermione story that I found plausible in terms of the pair because of the situation. I didn't find the back story of it plausible though. Harry was being badly abused by the Dursleys for like forever and nobody seemed to have noticed until Sirius paid the Dursleys a visit to see why Harry wasn't replying to any letters. In addition to that, Pettigrew was capture shortly after the events of GoF and Sirius was proven innocent yet the Ministry still refused to believe Voldemort was back even though they had Pettigrew in custody (that's nothing compared to what happened later on in the story after Umbridge's blood quill). Anyways, I found the Harry/Hermione pairing plausible because Harry ended up staying with Remus and Sirius in some house Sirius bought that was like 15 minutes drive or so from where Hermione lived. Hermione decided to spend the summer with her parents that summer instead of being at 12 Grimauld Place so Harry and Hermione saw each other often during the summer.
A fish without a bicycle cannot contemplate his navel.
My feelings exactly. Tonks is the only female character near enough to Harry's age who makes sense and has any defined character in the books. I have read decent Harry/Daphne stories but these work only because she is a 'blank slate' that the fanfic author can fill in to be what he or she wants. Tonks sense of fun and non-conformity can be made to work well with Harry's personality but the age and experience gap is just too much to stand up to much scrutiny.
I think your comments on "any defined character in the books" and "blank slates" are the key, at least from my PoV. JKR just doesn't tell us enough about the other girls. She spent so much time on the trio (H/R/Hr), we don't know about the others. Even info on Tonks is pretty minimal ("Summer of Change" which is H/Tonks is in my top 5 favorites, although it is fairly A/U).
In many ways, despite H/G being my favorite paring, I understand some people's confusion on why Ginny is the correct person for Harry. JKR really didn't give us all that much on Ginny either, making her somewhat of a blank slate too. I managed to obtain an electronic copy of book 5 (to match the book I purchased) and did a search on Ginny. In that book where they are starting to get to know one another as real people/friends, I only found 11 sections with Ginny talking, all between 2 & 12 paragraphs (relatively small parts). If I didn't understand her desire to show Harry as isolated, I'd almost want to accuse JKR of being afraid to write romantic parts. :) My point is that with that little info, what do we really know about Ginny and how she thinks? Book 7 was a major disappointment in the same way, where Ginny is essentially absent until the Epilogue.
Basically, if you don't put Harry with Hermione, you have to make up the girl (or fill her in) -- or so it seems to me.
But to answer the question, I particularly like Harry/(strong Slytherin girl) stories, as long as the author can make the reason they get together believable. I'm somewhat surprised not to see more Harry/Padma stories, as I think that could work well (I see Parvati as too flighty).
Kevin
I, too, think JKR is afraid to write fluff, as there is only the one-paragraph-long scene in HBP. Most people I know curse her for the "censoring" she's done, myself included. The reason for that might be the fact that the books are originally meant for school-aged kids, who go "EWWWWWWW!" every time they see people kissing or holding hands. That sucks, but I think it's either that, or she's insecure of her talents in writing such scenes... Any other ideas?
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"Night falls and I'm running in circles (Whoa-oh-oh)
I'm being chased by my imagination (Whoa-oh-oh)"
Alesana - The Thespian
I just think it's the fact that they are not romance novels. I don't think it's got anything to do with how well JKR does or does not write them or insecurity or anything it's just the fact that they are *not* romance books!
I don't think they need to be romance novels to show the lead male & female spending time together with snippets of talks where they get to know each other and let the reader learn about the characters. (Why the H/G thing seems like such a surprise to some people.) What about one character giving the other "looks" and having that returned, or some verbal flirting -- something to show developing attraction? That and many other things would fit within a "teen" book and could be outside of romance novels. I've got a huge stack of SciFi/Fantasy novels that don't seem to shy about pointing out the lead characters like each other and show them getting to know one another and depend on each other (and most aren't graphic).
I don't know... I really do wonder if JKR was afraid to write it, couldn't do a good job of it, her editor made her take it out, or more likely she didn't see the need as in not understanding her audience well enough. Or some combo of that. Unless she says something, we'll probably never know.
This can sorta go into the same bucket as the "monster in the chest" thing in book6, where I go "Huh? What was JKR thinking? What target was she trying to hit because it looks like a clean miss to me."
I also think it has to be Harry's age. I remember, though it was awhile ago, that sometimes you just notice a girl. Especially since Harry sees Dean and Ginny it is really the first time he sees Ginny in a close up "romantic" situation. The id is powerful but the ego is oblivious.
Oh my gosh - no one I knew spent time *talking* when we were 16!
Oh my gosh - no one I knew spent time *talking* when we were 16!
So that's why I didn't have a girlfriend in High School! I talked too much! And here I thought it was because girls were always attracted to the jerks, because for some unfathomable reason, they were the popular ones. What I wouldn't do for a time machine now.
The non talking phase doesn't last long :P You are far better off being a talker in the long run it's more profitable. I'm just saying that at 16 you look, you like, you chase, you kiss. There's no indepth conversationing there are too may hormones!
This can sorta go into the same bucket as the "monster in the chest" thing in book6, where I go "Huh? What was JKR thinking? What target was she trying to hit because it looks like a clean miss to me."
My impression was that Harry was experiencing feelings for which he literally had no reference and no words to describe, so had to make it up.
It is implicit that his first eleven years were almost devoid of any affection, much less love, and it is testament to his nature that he was eventually able to understand or express any such thing.
It is also reasonably obvious that when it came to his relationship with Ginny, he was almost pathologically afraid of arousing Ron's ire. He witnessed Ron's attitude towards her earlier boyfriends, why would he think Ron would treat him any differently? He is more worried about losing one of his very few friends than pursuing a relationship, even if he knew what to do with such a thing.
For me, many non-Ginny stories portray Harry as some kind of lothario, confident around girls, just avoiding the "red-headed harridan". This makes me so angry on behalf of both Harry and Ginny that I would be throwing these stories at the wall were I to waste paper printing them out.
My impression was that Harry was experiencing feelings for which he literally had no reference and no words to describe, so had to make it up.
...
It is also reasonably obvious that when it came to his relationship with Ginny, he was almost pathologically afraid of arousing Ron's ire. ...
That may be a good way to put it. I just took the phrase as his way of expressing jealousy as he was starting to realize his feelings. But "the monster in his chest" still strikes me as nonsensical. I've seen multiple stories explain it as a love potion he was slipped that causes him to react to Ginny when he sees her, which leaves me shaking my head.
I agree. Ron really did Harry a disservice. Then again, Ron is just as clueless in regards to feelings, whether his own or of those around him (or so it seems to me). If Harry hadn't been afraid of losing a friend, because of the way he was raised, I believe he would have let Ron only be a normal friend instead of a best friend, especially after 4th year.
Why do you hate on Ron so? :(
Why do you hate on Ron so? :(
We don't hate Ron, as such. It's simply that he is a teenage boy, many of whom are pretty unpleasant for a significant proportion of the time.
Just in case you worry about personal bias, I'm speaking from personal experience of having been one, spending five years at boarding school with another 500 or so, witnessing how they interacted with girls of an equivalent age.
Also, I'm in no way suggesting that teenage girls are much better, just different (can you tell I have a teenage daughter?). You'll notice JKR made no distinction between how either gender treated Harry, whether persecuting or lionising him. The big difference we see is between Hermione and Ron, and she's several months older, not to mention not the younger sibling of a successful bunch with issues and that desire to prove himself.
Why do you hate on Ron so? :(
I don't hate Ron, that would be too strong. Dislike would be better.
I'll be the first to say no one is perfect (including me), but I think Ron really dragged Harry down. Second year was Ron's shining moment. He helped Harry get away from Durskaban (I wish I knew who came up with that :) and he stood by him during the Parseltongue debacle. You can put the helping in going after the Stone at the end of year 1 in with this list too, as it was close to the same timeframe. However, other than that, I don't see many positives about Ron.
Ron was quite jealous over time, easily side-tracked, seemed to think more of himself than anyone else, completely walked away from Harry when he was really needed -- twice, pulled Harry down in his school work, he didn't seem to clue Harry in on the Wizarding world (IIRC), and probably some other stuff, but that's the main ones that immediately come to mind. In many ways, I think Ron and Draco aren't that different, except that Draco takes his view further, but then look at who his parents are. To be fair, Ron did share his family with Harry (which Harry really needed), and as NotACat pointed out, many teenage boys have some or many of these traits. (I probably don't want to know what others thought of me when I was 11-18. :)
I'm willing to admit that perhaps "in the moment", Ron wasn't that bad, and my dislike comes from being able to see everything over 7 years, so I can look back at the early times and think: Wow. Harry would have done a lot better if he had listened to Hermy more than Ron. Harry needed more, but then I don't think JKR wanted that, as Harry would have been too strong and wouldn't have sacrificed himself (which is a real plot stretch, but I'll try to ignore that here {yes, I really disliked book7}). I think Harry needed a better friend than Ron as his best mate, but for that to happen, I suppose Harry would have had to have been in Hufflepuff. :)
That's a heaps different view of Ron than the one I have. *shrugs* Sure he has some traits that aren't great - don't we all? Ultimately I found Ron to be a wonderful friend for Harry. As a friend I am not always as I should be and I have very good friends who drop the ball sometimes. The value in the friendship is that we continue as friends past these indiscretions.
Often I see in the friends my children choose things that I think make them unsuitable but my child gets something from the friendship - they choose them anyway and are fulfilled by the relationship I see as flawed.
As for Ron and Harry I find there to be more times when Ron and Harry work as best friends than when they don't. I don't think Ron had any worse view of school work than Harry does. Friendships can survive jealousy and break ups. Not always, but I buy that this one does.
I like Ron. He's not perfect but Harry chooses him and that says more to me than what I might think his flaws are.
I like Ron. He's not perfect but Harry chooses him and that says more to me than what I might think his flaws are.
Yeah, its about Harry's choices. I wouldn't have Hermione as a friend, but I know that she is important to Harry and I accept that. I do try and avoid her in fanfic, especially when you have early Harry/Ginny but Hermione is still a major player in Harry's life.
I'm willing to admit that perhaps "in the moment", Ron wasn't that bad, and my dislike comes from being able to see everything over 7 years, so I can look back at the early times and think: Wow. Harry would have done a lot better if he had listened to Hermy more than Ron. Harry needed more, but then I don't think JKR wanted that, as Harry would have been too strong and wouldn't have sacrificed himself (which is a real plot stretch, but I'll try to ignore that here {yes, I really disliked book7}). I think Harry needed a better friend than Ron as his best mate, but for that to happen, I suppose Harry would have had to have been in Hufflepuff. :)
Truly, it's a lot simpler than that. One of the reasons to employ a "trio" of friends in a dramatic or adventure narrative (Star Trek TOS, Star Wars, Nancy Drew, Tom Corbett, Danny Dunn, etc.) is that is provides an easy vehicle to illustrate the protagonist's decisionmaking process. Typically you have one of the friends represent one aspect of the protag's mind, while the other represents the other. Often this is Id vs. Superego, with protag playing the Ego, but there are other ways of diagramming it. Friend Id and Friend Superego bicker, and protag makes the decision. Protag can never listen entirely to one or the other, because then there's no real drama, but which one will predominate depends on where you need the narrative to go.
Harry had to make a lot of bad decisions over the years (especially in not telling Dumbledore certain things) in order for the narrative to progress where it did. Ron's choices aren't all bad, but they're mostly motivated by his affections and appetites rather than by his conscience or his intellect. Hermione's almost exactly the opposite, and this is allows us to see the outlines of the choices Harry faces.
This is, incidentally, why it was obvious that Ron & Hermione were destined for each other from nearly the Word Go. R & Hr complement and complete each other in a way that H & Hr never could. Ron needs Hermione's intellect and superego, and she needs his appetites and id. Ginny's relationship to all this is pretty vague, but again, given the kind of story this is, not really unexpected.
Truly, it's a lot simpler than that. One of the reasons to employ a "trio" of friends in a dramatic or adventure narrative (Star Trek TOS, Star Wars, Nancy Drew, Tom Corbett, Danny Dunn, etc.) is that is provides an easy vehicle to illustrate the protagonist's decision making process. Typically you have one of the friends represent one aspect of the protag's mind, while the other represents the other. Often this is Id vs. Superego, with protag playing the Ego, but there are other ways of diagramming it. Friend Id and Friend Superego bicker, and protag makes the decision. Protag can never listen entirely to one or the other, because then there's no real drama, but which one will predominate depends on where you need the narrative to go.
...
That's an interesting way of looking at it that I've never thought about, and it makes sense. I'll assume that a "common literary device" I've just never picked up on before. Then again, I thought that this sort of mental discussion was why the main character always had conversations with the white angel on one shoulder and the
red devil on the other shoulder. :)
This is, incidentally, why it was obvious that Ron & Hermione were destined for each other from nearly the Word Go. R & Hr complement and complete each other in a way that H & Hr never could. Ron needs Hermione's intellect and superego, and she needs his appetites and id. Ginny's relationship to all this is pretty vague, but again, given the kind of story this is, not really unexpected.
I'm sorry, but I just can't go there. I will agree with you that Hermy needs some traits Ron has (he's more laid back and not so "type A") while she has some traits he needs (like being more organized and motivated). But almost all relationships I know have a sizable amount of common ground to build upon, and I don't see that for R/Hr. Yes, I don't think their adventures together with Harry is enough, because they're not part of the pair's personalities. I don't know, maybe I'm just blind in some way, but I really can't see putting Ron and Hermy together as being logical; they have too many differences. I can find the common ground in personalities for Harry and Ginny, but not for Ron and Hermy.
Immaturity of teens aside, I'll agree with the above posters that Ron possesses few of the traits I would personally look for in a friend. That said, I understand why Harry likes Ron, through both his affection-starved history and, more likely, his greater sense of benevolence and understanding. Few people are as heroic as Potter. Such heroism aside, I identify more with Harry's other potential friends.
Having noted that, I'd like to direct this thread back to the reason I actually created it: non-HG ship stories.
Ginny presents a fantastic character for Rowling: she is both intimately involved with Harry in an early (second) book and is a blank slate upon which to write in the later books. No other character is both as involved and open to interpretation as Ginevra. Rowling's heart was in the right place, even if I feel the fanfiction community has far better explored the H/G relationship than she. As many others have noted, the Harry Potter books were not written as romances.
Those facts aside, I would like to explore fiction that examines not just H/G relationships, but others as well. Arguments about Freudian logic (Id, Ego, etc.) are all well and good but Rowling did characterize nigh-every major character better than Ginny. I'd love to enjoy reading the very best H/? stories, even if I come back to SIYE...
I enjoyed Paradigm of Uncertainty when I read it - the first two in the unfinished trilogy - it's Harry/Hermione - but generally I just don't enjoy Harry paired with anyone else, so I've not found one worth reading. I started reading PoU only becasue it was on the PotterFicWeekly podcast I was editing and I read it and discussed it and had a blast but I've not found another story with a H/other pairing that I ahve enjoyed. My mind normally wanders and I get bored and never finish it.
I enjoyed Paradigm of Uncertainty when I read it - the first two in the unfinished trilogy - it's Harry/Hermione - but generally I just don't enjoy Harry paired with anyone else, so I've not found one worth reading. I started reading PoU only becasue it was on the PotterFicWeekly podcast I was editing and I read it and discussed it and had a blast but I've not found another story with a H/other pairing that I ahve enjoyed. My mind normally wanders and I get bored and never finish it.
The few occasions I have ventured into non-Harry/Ginny fics any enjoyment has come from stuff outside the ships.
I have read all that is posted of Delenda Est on FF.net. Its Harry/Bella but wisely goes back to a younger Bella who could, possibly, be taken on a different track. Its a bit uneven but I do enjoy the Pureblood machinations.
The author, Lord Silvere, says in his profile:
Harry/Ginny has always been my favorite ship, but I kind of have a secret like for Harry/Bellatrix, though it is extremely difficult to find anything that is done well owing to the small nature of the ship.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5511855/1/Delenda_Est
I, personally, find that Harry/Luna does wonders for my sense of humor. Those fics are often so funny that people start giving me weird looks. But I don't generally read them unless they have some H/G in there, so I sometimes read some H/G/L witch there aren't really that many.
I've only finished reading only two Harry/Luna stories. One was "Luna's Hubby" which wasn't exactly completely serious. The other I believe was called "Bonds of Family" and was very serious.
A fish without a bicycle cannot contemplate his navel.
i actually read a HP/Daphne Greenglass story on FF.net it was well written. not my ship, but appreciated the degree of writing by the author
While I consider myself to be primarily a H/G writer (13.3 out of my 18 stories), I wanted to try my hand at a Harry/("bad" girl) story. So, I wrote "The Grass Is Always Greener", a Harry/Daphne story. I'll happily admit that you have to take reader stats with a grain of salt (or perhaps several spoonfuls :) but based on my story stats on fanfiction.net, this H/Daphne story is far and away the "favorite" story on any stat you want to name for my multi-chapter stories. Second place is not even close, either. I find that very interesting. Here's average hits per chapter for the top 4 stories:
Rogue = 14175 hits/ch
A Friend Indeed = 15420 hits/ch
Fate's Mistake = 21070 hits/ch
TGIAG = 32552 hits/ch
TGIAG has more C2's, reviews, alerts, and Favs (in total) than any other story. "Rogue" has 20K more hits total, but then "Rogue" is 20 chapters long while TGIAG is only 8 chapters. What I get out of that is that the Harry/Daphne pairing is very popular. I find that even stranger because she's only mentioned in the books once (that I'm aware of), and only that she was a Slytherin girl who was taking her OWLs at the same time Harry was. Talk about a "blank slate"! :)
I can't come up with a good explanation for this popularity...
While I quite lucked into writing H/G myself for my niece long before I discovered online fanfic, I have no aversions to reading any well thought out pairings. I am no 'shipper'. I'll read anything save smut (most HP authors haven't had NEARLY enough experience to write this worth a damn) or slash (which I just tend to find lame and boring, see previous.) mostly due to quality.
Just a couple to get you started:
There are some excellent H/Hr stories that do a good job of explaining the how/why. Kokopelli's 'Ever After' comes to mind. But generally, most of the good H/Hr fics are old enough to be what I would consider to be a 'pre-cannon' pairing of H/G so it ought not matter to you. Ask around, there are loads. During the heavy 'shipping' thing there were H/Hr only boards. No idea if any still exist. Ask around.
If you want to read some interesting pairings, find 'fan fic authors dot net' and read some Jeconais'. The author has done a number of interesting stories with all sorts of pairings and story lengths. Strong author. I recommend spending some time reading quite a few of his(?) works. the knight/queen, and This Means War titles are quite fun.
Ishtar's unfinished 'Family Values' is quite fun. Though I normally despise crossovers (due to the poor logic used and the overall average poor quality of writing) this one is fairly amusing. Addams Family meets HP.
There were a pair of fics I recall with one of the twin sisters(parvati?), titled something like 'Dance with me Harry' I don't recall the author. I recall they were decent, but wandered a bit and the second one dragged on forever.
Your mileage may vary...
...what are the best gen-HP fics out there? When Sugar Quill went dormant, I lost my main source for general HP fanfic that follows canon without focusing mainly on H/G. I'm currently reading Fernwithy's 7th yr Teddy serial among a handful of other stories that are all waiting to be updated, so I'm looking for something new to get me hooked. Non-canon pairings are ok if it makes sense with the plot, but I generally avoid slash. AU is perfectly fine in my book if well-written, too. Suggestions?
Either that, or Phantom Limb, Sins of the Father's, and/or Meaning of One can hurry up and post a chapter just for me! ;)
::Retreating back into lurk-dom::
Your mileage may vary...
That phrase makes me shudder because of its associations with one of the authors you mentioned.