MetaFic

Hate is a strong word, but that doesn't mean there aren't things I hate in fanfiction. Mostly, it's just strong dislike, or I simply find some things to be annoying.

And it depends if we're talking mechanics or plots and plot devices.

For instance, it's kinda silly to see a native speaker make more SPaG errors than I do. Sure, typos get through, and even a long and thorough beta process doesn't necessarily catch them all, but I don't mind those. But if you claim to have two betas and you still mix up "than" and "then" or "your" and "you're"... That tends to be really annoying. Even if the story has an original plot line, it still kills the reading.

One thing I do hate in fanfiction is raising the angst level to create more sympathy, or adding scenes with extreme gore to show how evil DEs are. Don't get me wrong, if a story goes in that direction and it's consistent, I don't mind. But if you add just one scene like that because you're not capable of picturing evil in other ways, then I usually stop reading.

The important part is too keep everything levelled out, and not just drop scenes that don't fit into the story's tone, just because you couldn't find a way to describe things in a better way.

I don't mind the clichés as some people do. I use them myself, and try to add a certain twist to them if it's possible. For me, it's also fun to see how different authors approach those clichés that have been around as long as fanfics (and some are even older).

What I do hate is people trying to describe problems they don't understand in fanfiction. The good part for me is that I have a strong dislike for such stories anyway so I avoid them. I'm talking about abusive relationships, rape, etc. I read enough "serious" books that deal with those, and I simply don't want to read that in fanfiction.

Many times, fanfic authors are incapable of dealing with those issues, and sometimes, even good authors can disappoint you with something like that. That's just another reason I avoid those.

What I strongly dislike is major "out-of-characterness". There are seven books you can examine to see how those characters act. If you change the characters, I'd like to see how. It's not a problem if there's a reasonable evolution or degradation of the character's behaviour, but if it just falls out of the sky, it makes no sense.

There are more things, but these were at the top of my mind.

Besides, if I stumble upon something I hate, I just stop reading. No need to flame the author or try to get him to see it my way. There are always other stories out there that I'll like more.

I hate laziness.

In particular, lack of research. The net is full of info about loads of places so there is really no excuse.

just my tuppenny worth ;)

Oh yeah... That too...

Especially when London starts looking like it was built a hundred years ago and planned with a precise grid.

Yup, lack of research is a big problem.

I'd split the issue. Things I hate:
1. As Dino said, Authors tackling serious subjects that they don't understand. Rape is the one that always comes to mind. Unless you've been very close to a victim, you've been a victim yourself, or you work closely with victims as part of your career, I promise you that you don't have any idea how to deal with the issue. So don't try. If you do try to deal with the issue on a personal basis (i.e. you directly show the behavior of a victim in your story), you're probably going to look stupid, and it's very possible that you'll offend people who know better. If you have the right knowledge and experience and you want to write about it, feel free, but please add a warning somewhere. I, for one, don't want to read something written by someone who knows what they're talking about.
2. Ridiculous exaggerations of canon character traits. I put this one in the 'hate' category because it just makes me crazy. Hermione is smart and studious. This does not mean that she has read or can read the entire contents of the Hogwarts library, for instance. I smallish library has 20,000 volumes. Even if Hermione can read one of them per day, that means it would take her 54 years to get through them all. No way. That's just one example.

Things that bug me:
1. Cliches. I, too, manipulate and reinvent cliches at times. What bugs me, though, is when an 'author' takes a bunch of existing cliches, strings them together in an order that no-one has used before, and then calls it a story. If you want to use a plot element that has been cliched by overuse, then justify it and treat it properly. I like reading stories that do that.
2. Characterizations. Basically, I agree with what Dino said. We know the main characters fairly well, and we have some pretty good experience with what they would and would not do. If you have a character do something weird without first adjusting said character to allow the weirdness, you've lost me. Easy example: Canon-Molly, as of the middle of canon-PS, would never consider throwing Harry bodily across the Hogwarts lawn. In MoO, however, I hope I showed that her character had started changing long before (prior to the story's start, even), and all of those changes added up to make her a person who could do such a thing.
3. Fantastical powers with no balancing. If you make Harry (or anyone else) too powerful, then you've removed the main conflict of the plot. When you give him control of the elements, a mastery of wandless magic, or the ability to transform into any animal at will, you're making it too easy for him to win the main conflict with Voldemort. Unless, of course, you give Voldemort similar abilities. If you make it too easy for Harry, then the main plot becomes uninteresting, because his defeating Voldemort is a foregone conclusion. If you try to make it a legitimate conflict anyway, ignoring the advantage you've given Harry, then you're just going to frustrate the reader.
4. Spelling, Punctuation, and Grammar. Not everyone is good at this. If you're not, use MSWord (or whatever) to help you make your story as good as you can. Then give it to someone who's better at such things and ask them to help you fix it further. The whole point of fiction is that you can immerse yourself in a fictional world and watch the events occuring there. Anything that draws the reader out of that immersion is a bad thing for the story. Minor grammatical errors may not seem like a big deal, but they'll unconsciously or consciously make the reader pull out of the story itself (the plot), and that will make them enjoy the story less.

There are probably more, but that's a good start.

Dave

Thanks for you insights.

Something that has wormed its way in to the English language over the past 20 years is the hanging modifier. I can't tell you how much this bugs me, but that's a problem the education system needs to eradicate.

The same as everyone else spelling and grammar can always be improved. In this day and age is there really any excuse for not running at least a spell checker over your work? I have always found it easier to print work off before a final read through and edit, than to scroll down the screen.

Research. Not just me then who gets annoyed with a lot of fiction? Before i tackle a project i tend to research every aspect of any subject that is expected to come up in a script if i have no in-depth knowledge (and that includes being asked to be put in a prison for three days so i could understand the reactions of a character spending this first week inside). In fan-fiction the research doesn't have to be so intense but a simple internet search would at least suffice to give an illusion of realism.

Everything written should move the plot or characterisation forward. Never show a gun on a mantelpiece if you are not going to use it by the middle of act II.

Out of character. Nothing worse than seeing characters who just share the same name as those in canon and nothing else. For many characters there is plenty of canon evidence to how they would behave. If you are going to have an almost 'Super Harry' you need to balance this out by taking his canon flaws and exaggerating them. btw Dave i never saw your Molly as ooc that Christmas, she was protecting her family as per canon and she never saw Harry as family at that time (well she still doesn't really). To give more examples over clever Hermione is one that i just can't get. Same applies to a Ron who is great at Strategy.

Two-Dimensional characters. Example, the twins are used just for pranks (In the book they were described as mischief makers never pranksters as far as i can recall, and exactly how many pranks did they manage in the books?) and light relief and never to move a plot forward.

Authors who will not take any criticism. Come on guys, it's about learning and you never stop when it comes to writing. Listen to other people, they may know what they are talking about. Whilst we are on the subject Authors who feel the need to belittle other peoples work, creeping in more and more i find.

Again i have plenty more, but enough to be going along with

But you know what's a blessing? Most of that stuff you can find early on in the story, sometimes even in the first chapter. So it's really easy to avoid.

There are still stories that manage to sneak in such things, but they are rare.

And I'm really thankful for that.

An interesting topic to start this forum. I have to agree with the general shape of the comments so far, however, I do have some clarifying points that I would like to make.

Grammar:
As all of the authors I Beta for will attest, I m a stickler about grammar, however, I don't think grammar is a fanfiction problem. Grammar has eroded in the English language thanks in large part to targeting media at a 12 year old level and the proliferation of counter culture on the internet. That, however, is a much longer discussion. Grammar in writing is.

There is a glut of fanfiction that lacks proper grammar. However, improper grammar is not the sign of the beast in writing. Rather the unintentional use of improper grammar is to be abhorred. Many great works of fiction are filled with improper grammar; sentence fragments, ending sentences with prepositions, inconsistent tense, and many others. However, these grammar mistakes are intentionally left in the writing for a reason. The author is well aware of proper grammar and ignores it for a reason that enhances that quality of the writing.

What bothers me are the writers who makes no attempt at improving their grammar. The ones who argue that as the writer it is their artistic right to have atrocious grammar. I refuse to read them, and I refuse to acknowledge them. However, any author who shows improvement and is simply learning and is making an effort to be a better grammatical writer, I will give them the benefit of the doubt and give encouragement and occasional help.

My second and final point is in fact my signature file. Read it here:

- A good novel is an indivisible sum; every scene, sequence and passage of a good novel has to involve, contribute to and advance all three of its major attributes: theme, plot, characterization.
Ayn Rand - The Romantic Manifesto p. 74 (pb 93)

I do not expect fanfiction to be a good novel and fit the definition above. I expect fanfiction to strive to reach that ideal. Few fanfiction writers out there actually can do this with each and every story and chapter they write. St. Margarets is one. Kurinoone is another. There are several others as well, but names elude me at the moment.

The problem is that many will argue that everything in their writing is necessary to the plot, theme, and characters. However, stories are supposed to be focused on the big picture or the small picture, not jump between the two. Epic fanfiction has a tendency to glorify the mundane and unnecessary. Chapter long shopping trips and endless birthdays of every character and every gift they are given and chapters that read more like daily planners than stories have destroyed more good story ideas than China has people.

This is a systemic problem. It is easy to write pages and pages of inane drivel that does not advance a story plot. Authors can keep their fans happy with regular posts so that they keep receiving the adoration to which they have grown accustom. Yet, the readers are as much to blame as they squeal in delight over stories that slide from superb to subpar in but a few chapters instead of angrily denounce such practices. But perhaps, that is simply because Rowling's own slide from superb to adequate was so well lauded.

Epic fanfiction has a tendency to glorify the mundane and unnecessary. Chapter long shopping trips and endless birthdays of every character and every gift they are given and chapters that read more like daily planners than stories have destroyed more good story ideas than China has people.

Yeah. I don't know anyone who does that. Let me just... go over here . . . and I'll . . .

Don't mind me. I'm not doing anything. Just, you know, skimming the next few chapters of MoO to refresh my memory. Yeah, that's it...

-Rolls eyes-

I do find a difference between glorifying the mundane and using the mundane to further a story. Diagon Alley is an important part of the HP universe, and any year requires a visit as it offers an opportunity for introducing plot elements that will be required later.

When I say glorifying the mundane, I mean having an event happen just to have the event. It becomes this wishful daydream of what the author really wants for themselves rather than what is important or needed for the character.

The presents the first Christmas were very necessary to the plot in regards to Harry's past and the view Molly took of him. Harry going out and buying out 8 sets of clothes from muggle London is just a waste of time.

Of course, you get to read my actual thoughts in my beta comments.

- A good novel is an indivisible sum; every scene, sequence and passage of a good novel has to involve, contribute to and advance all three of its major attributes: theme, plot, characterization.
Ayn Rand - The Romantic Manifesto p. 74 (pb 93)

I do see the difference, but it's something I worry about whenever I write something along those lines. It's easy to slip into just 'spending time with the characters,' as Chreechree calls it. It can be quite pleasant, even if it doesn't serve any greater purpose.

When I first began writing fanfiction, I worked on two main stories. The first was fast paced and did not waste a lot of time on unimportant elements. However, the characters suffered and the writing was childish at times. I was more intersted in finishing the story than i was in telling the story well.

The second epic fic I worked on, and never finished, was an exercise in controlled writing. I spent a lot of time developing characters and plots and interactions that swirled around a large central plot and that resulted from the fallout of a single action. To this day, I still believe some of my best writing can be found in that work, but because I was caught up in the drama of the characters rather than the overall story, it suffered. Although much more character driven and poignant, it became a convoluted soap opera that I realized I could never finish. I would need to go back, reorganize the story, and then scrap large parts of it.

In the end, the story overwhelmed me. It was too much and I no longer had any control over it. Part of the problem was that I was too confident in my abilities and the other problem was that no one was willing to criticize my work constructively. I had two betas on the project, one was a decent writer and a good online friend who proof-read the stories. The other was a close personal friend in real life who was enamored of angsty, high-drama anime. To her, my story was like crack. I lacked a support structure that would argue with me and put roadblocks in my way and make me consider what i was doing.

The worry you have is a good thing to have. It would be very easy for MoO to slip over the precipice. However, you also have some benefits that I did not. One is you have a more expansive beta team who calls you on a lot of things. Second, you are concerned about it and have put a lot of effort into the story layout. Also, you have me as a beta. I don't say this because I am some great beta, but because I am very vocal about excess in writing due to my mistakes in the past. I am in essence against your story being long and so I make you justify and think about why you are including scenes in the story. I don't always win our discussions, but when I go back and read MoO, I see the purpose behind all the scenes that are there because of our discussions. Purpose and intent have a way of making length an advantage.

Still, authors need a devil's advocate in the critique of their writing. You learn a lot more from someone who picks apart your writing looking for mistakes and errors than from a hundred complimentary reviews and soft comments. You may not agree with them, and you may not find their comments fair or totally informed as they are not privy to plot, but that review will make you think and reconsider and seriously struggle to be better.

As great as my beta team is for CB, I would kill for a beta that argues incessantly with me about what I put in and why. And I would love to find someone who actually dislikes my story and has valid and supportable reasons for it.

Lastly, the theme of MoO is one that lends itself to a more detailed understanding of daily life. Although the threat of Tom is in there, the first books, and from the direction of it, the second book, are not about Harry and Tom, they are about H/G and societal norms. To show that, it requires the forays into the mundane. "Spending time with the characters" is important. Could scenes be cut out or improved? Probably, as I always believe that any scene can be made better, however, in the long run, would that cause more harm when the story makes the shift from h/g to what they truly must face in the end? And unfortunately, that is a question that can never be answered.

- A good novel is an indivisible sum; every scene, sequence and passage of a good novel has to involve, contribute to and advance all three of its major attributes: theme, plot, characterization.
Ayn Rand - The Romantic Manifesto p. 74 (pb 93)

But I dislike:

• Things I've seen before. Fanfiction that looks like other fanfiction is boring, unless it is a commentary of some kind.
• Bad grammar etc. Typically this stops me at the first page. It's just too painful.
• Gross character inconsistency. I don't mind characters doing new and surprising things, showing growth or significant change, but you can't create a brand-new character and call him "Ron."
• Pointless stories. There needs to be a reason to write/read the story. Really, I think an FF story should be good fiction that happens to use somebody else's characters and settings. I want to care about what happens at the end.
• Stories designed primarily to bolster a particular ship. So you like to ship Hermione and Snape; fine. Tell me something interesting about it.
• Most slash. Just not my cup of tea, and it's almost never character-consistent. (Although I did once read a Snape-Harry story that actually sounded plausible.)
• Porn Without Plot. *Yawn.*

Bad grammar and spelling. While I can tolerate an occasional typo, two mistakes per paragraph is unbearable.

Another thing that irks me is that when an author makes a change in Harry's life that should have a tremendous impact to the overall story but the effects are minimal. I can understand the first couple of years at Hogwarts being similar but 5 years being the same???

And the biggest thing in fan fiction that I hate is when an author starts to write a good story but then never finishes it. *looks in melkior's direction* (I know. I'm guilty of not finishing my work as well.)

You might want to take a look at my blog on this site, before looking in my direction.

But the point is well taken.

I know. You aren't the only author I know that is taking a long time to finish a chapter. (The other person is taking longer. He hasn't posted a chapter since December. He did post an incomplete chapter on his yahoo group for opinions a few weeks ago though.) I hope you understand that I'm suffering from lack of decent reading material. There seems to be a lack of well written fan fiction lately... So I apologize if I sound grouchy or rude.

. . . I tend to let them build up until I can't stand it anymore, and write a one-shot parody or something to vent them.

Sadly, your way is probably better. At least people will be able to read the check-list of things to avoid.

I still get reviews or emails asking what the point of some of those things I vented with were about. Really. Garreth Aughty. Shep Fanz. Tripe Pudding. C'mon, people, it doesn't get less subtle than that.

Another thing that I hate in a fan fiction is when the author is not civilized and can't handle constructive criticism (especially when it is needed). There's this one author on FF.net that has written a good story when it comes to plot and character development, but comes to the number of typos they made... But they have continually refuse to get a beta. Several people have suggested that to the person and from what I've been told, they've all (myself included) been banned by the author from posting reviews. She was very nasty to me when I made the suggestion... She went so far as to say I had no clue what I was talking about and for me to go back to school and learn English.

I've just got back into reading fanfic after a fair break and breakfast is still a mystery to most writers.

Its very simple: toast, or cereal, or porridge, boiled eggs...

A full English only really makes it appearance when you have time to cook it and recover from it. :)

Therefore there is NO baking at breakfast. No scones, no cinnamon buns ......

/rant

When I was growing up during the 70s it was quite usual to have a cooked breakfast at home. My father was quite dedicated to his "morning fry-up" and breakfast was usually fried eggs with either bacon or sausages. This continued when I went to boarding school in my teens, which would be the early 80s. Cereal for breakfast would be optional at best.

I'm talking from the perspective of a dedicated Dangerverse fan here, but there's canonical evidence too. Canon!Harry was used by the Dursleys to cook them breakfast, and they didn't mind how early this implied he would have to rise. In the Dangerverse it's quite common for the large family in which Harry is happily raised to have a cooked breakfast because someone is happy to get up and do it: early on in the saga it's "Danger" (Remus' wife, the OC upon whom the whole AU swings); later it's Harry, who is her most attentive pupil.

Molly Weasley is another who would not be averse to rising early to make sure her family got a proper breakfast: one seems to recall canon!Harry being fed an inordinate number of sausages at one point, and nobody present seemed to think this unusual.

Bear in mind the stories are set several decades ago, when people thought differently about food. Also bear in mind that there is strong evidence that Magical people simply need more calories. Think about how much food gets eaten by the kids at Hogwarts: far more even than the huge breakfasts of my school-days. Then think about whether any of them ever become obese...

In the Dangerverse, there is also the probably-not-so-serendipitous point that one of the "mothers" is partly-American (through her father) thus allowing for some leeway when unusual foods make an appearance. It is entirely reasonable that "Danger", her best friend when young, might have picked up a taste for certain American breakfast foods...the jury is still out on whether peanut-butter pasta sauce is really acceptable but that's more a matter of taste ;-)

The canon is set in the 1990s - not several decades ago ... I never understood baking at breakfast in fanfiction either. Mind you I think I have a tendency to make Harry shovel too many scrambled eggs and choke on too much toast than is reasonable. I like to mix it up a bit with cereal :D . When a fic has people sitting around a British breakfast table shovelling 'biscuits' and pancakes I shudder. I recall my mother looking at me horrified when I asked if we could have pancakes for breakfast! "That's not a breakfast food!" *shoves Cornflakes in Little Kezza's hands and wlaks away*

The thing is though the breakfasts at Hogwarts were never described as huge, nor was Molly ever described as cooking more than bacon, sausages and eggs. I remember her shoving Bacon sandwiches into Harry's hand on OotP - I just don't think she gets up to make scones. (They're for afternoon tea anyway :P )

that's a really bad habit i've picked from the the States

I only have them some Sundays. That and Bagels.

Over here breakfast is simple, no baking or pancakes involved

You're right with shifting the date of canon, how hard can it be to keep it real

... I will not read. It's title put me off.

Name Pending. The summary says they haven't thought of a name yet.

Oooh yeah, I wanna read that ....

I think most people have mentioned the main issues I hate in fanfiction. There is one, though, that is rather sad. I hate it when an author has a good idea, a seed that if germinated would be different and potentially spectacular, and then they get lazy or take the easy way out. It so depressing :(. I hate watching potential fall apart and go to waste.

Or you read a chapter of 2 of an idea that you find fascinating and then they just stop.